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#21 pmorris

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 09:39 PM

Having said that Paul, is it your ascertion that there should be more hurdles for new entrepreneurs entering the field to overcome... is this for making sure they have what it takes to make a go of it in the tough times or just to ensure that they will actually feed the market and not just take away from others already established?

If the market isn't there then it just isn't there.. you can't call a few avid anglers and yakers a market.. it is great that they have a place to look and buy gear at but for the most part the rest probably buy online. I don't think it would matter if we had BassPro shops or Cabellas, LLBean or whomever put down roots... would there be a market for these companies to tap into? All of which carry more than just rods and reels... is it enough or is the overhead going to kill them the same as the other smaller companies, because the traffic isn't high enough.


New entrepreneurs don't need more hurdles; however, they do need better advice. Are you familiar with the Seed capital initiative through ACOA and, more specifically, the Centre for Entrepreneurship and Education Development (CEED) that's based in Halifax? I watched from a distance a young entrepreneur's journey through the program. At first blush, it seemed great. He was getting lots of education that seemed sound. And then I started to notice the cracks in the process. First, his business plan didn't work. So they encouraged him to keep re-jigging the numbers until it did. Nobody thought to tell him that "this dog won't hunt." Next, he was undercapitalized by about $100K. Nobody thought to tell him that he should delay his dream until he could raise equity. Instead, he raised a smaller amount of capital through debt instead of equity. What's worse, due to the undercapitalization, he made a dreadful location decision. He now has a retail storefront with no parking. The kicker for me was when about a month before he opened the business, they decided to nominate it as a "business of the year" candidate. They were effectively encouraging him to "plan the parade route" before the game was started, let alone won. It was absolutely bizarre.

Sure, it's sad when small retail stores close or are stillborn. But it is what it is. Buggy whip manufacturers didn't survive the introduction of the automobile. I don't miss them; do you?

We don't need protectionism such as the duties that bakerthree suggests. They just delay the inevitable and result in consumers paying higher prices to subsidize bad ideas. What we need is less imitation and more innovation. Cutting the same pie into more, but smaller, pieces doesn't make the pie any larger. We don't need more retail even if we can squeeze it in. You and I won't buy more fishing rods if there are more stores. We'll just spend our money in different places. It's a zero-sum exercise.

To answer your question about Bass Pro Shops, I doubt if they have any full-size operations (e.g., their Outdoor World stores that can be as large as 300,000 square feet) in metropolitan markets of less than a million people. The HRM might be able to support something more along the typical D1#'s Sporting Goods size of 45,000 square feet or so, but those stores are essentially like SportCheks with significant fishing and hunting departments added. I've never been in a Cabelas, so I can't comment on those.

Paul
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#22 pmorris

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:02 PM

May be if its the online market that is ruining every smaller business then its time for duty to be put on out of province shipments, and out of country as well to get people to spend locally. Locally spent money helps the economy to grow.


I'm not in favour of protectionist duties. They simply raise prices to protect inefficient businesses. And, if we pay more for fishing gear, we have less money to spend on other things. The net effect is that the government would take more money out of the system via the duties and the economy would shrink, not grow.

If you want the local economy to grow, you need to foster greater risk-taking through innovation. Start by lowering personal income tax rates. The highest marginal tax rate in Nova Scotia is 50% vs. 39% in Alberta. Would an innovative entrepreneur who could start a business anywhere in Canada prefer to keep 61 cents of every dollar of pre-tax profit or only 50 cents? Would provincial government tax revenue go down if tax rates were decreased? Not if more profitable entrepreneurs start locating here after the playing field is leveled.

Paul
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#23 bakerthree

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:13 PM

the reason why Alberta has 39% income tax is that the province is not in debt like many of the other Canadian provinces are. So the majority of the money the province pays goes back into the province not to pay off the interest building on it's provincial debt. Duties have been around for a long time and do protect growth in your country and provinces.

one example is a top of the line Mercedes in other countries cost as little as $30,000 cdn in other countries here the same car cost $280,000 who would buy a ford, chev or dodge if the taxes and tariffs did not exsist. That alone would put 20%-30% of the population out of employment (look what happened in Ontario with one auto plant closing).
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#24 pmorris

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:27 AM

the reason why Alberta has 39% income tax is that the province is not in debt like many of the other Canadian provinces are. So the majority of the money the province pays goes back into the province not to pay off the interest building on it's provincial debt. Duties have been around for a long time and do protect growth in your country and provinces.

one example is a top of the line Mercedes in other countries cost as little as $30,000 cdn in other countries here the same car cost $280,000 who would buy a ford, chev or dodge if the taxes and tariffs did not exsist. That alone would put 20%-30% of the population out of employment (look what happened in Ontario with one auto plant closing).


There's no doubting the reasons why Albertans enjoy the lowest tax rates; it's just that it has unintended consequences throughout the remainder of the country in a number of different areas (e.g., provincial outmigration, business location, the impact of a high Canadian dollar on the manufacturing sector, etc.). We should never have decided to store our oil within Alberta's boundaries :unsure:

Would you please provide the source for your comment that Canada imposes $250,000 of "taxes and tariffs" on a top of the line Mercedes. With respect to automobiles, I'm also interested in hearing your perception of the Auto Pact (superseded by NAFTA). I've always perceived the Auto Pact to have been an enormous benefit to Canada because it resulted in the removal of tariffs coincident with the imposition of other conditions that leveled the playing field.

Also, are you implying that if Nova Scotia had the power to impose sufficiently high enough duties on fishing rods, for example, that the obvious result would be that a local fishing rod manufacturing facility would be established?

Are you confident that such duties could be imposed unilaterally without other jurisdictions imposing duties on Nova Scotian exports (e.g., duties on lobsters, farmed Atlantic salmon, or the fishing rods we'd be manufacturing)?

My point is that protectionism begets protectionism. Big countries like China can get away with it. Smaller countries can get away with it on items for which the stakes are high enough. But "getting away with it" doesn't make protectionism a good idea or the best idea.

Thanks,
Paul
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#25 Shimanoman

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:21 AM

I, too would like to see some proof of the above-mentioned, $250,000 protectionist taxes on a $30,000 Mercedes.
Or perhaps, we have been exposed to a grossly enthusiastic example of "Journalistic License"??? Just sayin'.

Regards.....
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#26 Exstreamfisherman

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:32 AM

Keeping with Perry's comment... for those looking for some of the best prices on Kayaks and accessories then you should look up Kayak exchange here in Moncton.. not sure if I am allowed to post the link so I will wait to post that. A google search will find it quickly. Bryant Freeman at Escape Angler in Riverview is another shop that is worth a visit if you are ever up here.
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#27 bakerthree

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

my source for the above mentioned numbers was that several years ago my friend was over to United Arabic emirates and he priced a top of the line Mercedes over there to compare the price in Canada and when he converted it to Canadian dollars he found it was around $30,000. Going back 15-20 years ago a Lebanese store owner I knew traveled back to see his family twice a year he had a mercedes he kept over there for his visits because the shipping, duties and tax would make it cost as much as it would be to buy another one here if he imported it.
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#28 pmorris

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

my source for the above mentioned numbers was that several years ago my friend was over to United Arabic emirates and he priced a top of the line Mercedes over there to compare the price in Canada and when he converted it to Canadian dollars he found it was around $30,000. Going back 15-20 years ago a Lebanese store owner I knew traveled back to see his family twice a year he had a mercedes he kept over there for his visits because the shipping, duties and tax would make it cost as much as it would be to buy another one here if he imported it.


Thanks. The import duty is now only 6.1%. GST/HST also apply.

Paul
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#29 Shimanoman

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:23 PM

The source you relied upon is anecdotal and, according to it, would have made the price, in Canada, approx $60,000 or about double the price in the UAE. I could believe that.

What I cannot believe is that same, UAE $30,000 Mercedes would cost $280,000 in Canada. That, I believe, and to quote General "Stormin' Norman" Schwartzkoff, is bovine scatology. Again, just sayin'

Regards....
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#30 Lure loser

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:44 PM

If I might offer a couple of cents into the discussion, I can understand why the online market is popular. Just from shopping locally the past couple of years, it's hard to find good value for your money.

Let's face it, there's a rule of diminishing returns in how much the average consumer can spend. Yeah, you want to support the local store. But how much can you really afford to spend? 5 % difference, no biggy. 10 %? What about 20%? There is always a price point where the customer re-evaluates where to spend his/her hard-earned bucks.

I'm certainly not rich enough to shell out $500 and up for a fly rod plus $200 and up for a reel.

My experience has been that you have either CT or Wal-Mart that have cheap prices but only stock the lowest end quality of rods & reels.

Lures, tackle & such are reasonable and there's a variety so when the prices are around $10 for a quality rapala or something, that's not really factoring into the equation. I do go the the locals for the lures & such to fill out the tackle box. I'm talking big-ticket items.

Fishing Fever is a quality local shop but they simply don't stock the mid-range models that I can afford. So I went online (to TFO's Canadian site) for a quality rod that did not break the limits I can afford.

The difference is significant for my income level. If someone imposed a duty to stop that, I would not then spend twice as much at the local store, I still wouldn't have the money. I'd likely not buy anything new.

I'm NOT saying don't support the local guy. I'm just trying to share my views on why it can be difficult to do so.
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#31 Robbie Hiltz

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:57 PM

well said Lure Loser.
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#32 chaseforen777

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:18 PM

As I mentioned in another thread, it's my opinion that the small retail business model is broken. Lots of good discussion here and in the other thread about why it's broken and ways to potentially modify the model. One concept that hasn't been mentioned yet, though, is that one of the problems is the lack of barriers to entry. Any fool can open a retail operation. And he will. When he does, it dilutes the market for everybody else.

Paul


"Any fool can open a retail operation. And he will. When he does, it dilutes the market for everybody else." Is a valid point, it's not a long-term issue however. I work for a diverse company under responsible ownership. There are little start-ups that pop up and attempt to establish market share, and they all make the same mistake. They spend all their capital on location, advertising and initial stocking, and then go out and low-ball prices against established businesses that have been around for 30+ years. Year after year the same thing happens, they do a ton of business, make zero profit and dissappear of the face of the earth. Flash in the pan.

Meanwhile, companies like mine go off and do THE REST of what we do, while these here today gone tomorrow type companies absorb all of that ONE THING we do, for a short period of time and then everything evens out again. I guess the point is, the only way to do anything that depends on consumers must be diverse to survive, and large to thrive.

Inside these things you can do it a few different ways. The Wal-mart way, the Costco way or the Boutique way.

You can be huge, have a million sku's and low cost/low sticker mechandise (wal-mart).

You can be huge, have very few sku's and low cost/medium sticker merchandise (Costco).

Or you can be small, and have medium cost/high sticker merchandise (boutique).

The common theme is profit per square foot. "Outdoor" stores other than the BassPro's Cabela's etc. in my mind all fall under the boutique style store category. You have a small retail foot print, your stocked goods are not low cost, and you have HUGE markups. Thats the problem with these outfits most of the time. As a business owner, you know going in you aren't going to turn your stock over quick like walmart or costco, so the price tags have to be super high to cover the cost of the space it occupies for how long it sits there.

The only way to justify this is to stock med-high end stuff, and that also translates into higher sticker prices. Every little thing that increases price in todays consumer environment reduces your potential market share. Its like a pyramid. At the wide base of the pyramid, you have the wal-mart shoppers, in the middle you have the costco shoppers and the point at the top represents the boutique shoppers.

I feel like I'm repeating what I've wrote in the other thread we're discussing this stuff, but its interesting to talk about. Especially when folks report great experience shopping in TAO. I've never been but hey, I'm a wal-mart shopper, so it's really no surprise.

Small business model isn;t broken, society is!! Bakerthree said support local business and I agree. Buy in your community, if it's not available buy locally, keep looking and go Provincial, then Canada, then North America and lastly China. Everyone is looking for the cheapest price on everything and that is why WallMart is so busy. WallMart isn't cheap consumers are! I stopped buying on-line it started to be expensive,. If it is in the USA there is free shipping but.........add on 20% for duty, brokerage fees etc. All of a sudden what was a deal isn't ! Then there is PayPal!!! Ebay is a sellers market, if you get screwed good luck! I will buy from Rip- Tide Tackle in Amerst, Leaping Silver in Truro, Fishing Fever in Hfx. and any other Provincial shop I can find! If I cant find it there it aint worth haveing! Any shops out there you know about that offer service, decent selection, local advice, and lastly fair price post it up!!


"Shipping, duty brokerage fee etc. all of a sudden what was a deal isn't !" is a good point, I have found the two or three times I've ordered from BassPro thats exactly the case, but the reason I did is because of a disagreement I have with your other quote "If I cant find it [at a local shop] it aint worth haveing". The only reason I went to BassPro is because it was the only place I could find what I wanted. But the key with that statement is the fact that I wasn't willing to drive around to every shop in town searching. I'm a Plumbing/HVACR contractor and I used to have a lot of folks walk-in off the street asking for a part for something, the part they are looking for might cost $5, and what it is needed for could be replaced for $20, but when I tell them that they say "no thanks, I'll try elsewhere". Meanwhile, that person is spending who knows how much money on gas to drive around to find a $5 part to fix a $20 item I could have sold them and ended their search. (FYI we shut down the tiny bit of retail we used to do to apply those resources elsewhere, go figure eh!) That's the logic I find is at work when folks choose to shop online first, instead of supporting the small local outfits. Does anyone else find that to be the case?

Chase
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#33 Perry

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:15 PM

Agreed Chase on the statement if you cant find it local it's not worth haveing and to correct that statement i will say fly fishing. The reality of gear fishing is there is so much tackle that to stock a part of the selection takes a Bass Pro. There is an ample selection of fly fishing tackle in the Province to supply most needs. Price is soon forgotten when service is required.
I have been in the fishing business for over 40 years and it is a lifestyle decision. I love my office!
There is a way to have a profitable small fishing business but it would require a change in management from fill your freezer to trophy water. There should be room for both but NSDF caters to the meat angler as sadly they are the majority.
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#34 ouird

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:29 AM

im just catching up to this thread...
very sad news... :(
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#35 pmorris

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:45 AM

New entrepreneurs don't need more hurdles; however, they do need better advice. Are you familiar with the seed capital initiative through ACOA and, more specifically, the Centre for Entrepreneurship and Education Development (CEED) that's based in Halifax? I watched from a distance a young entrepreneur's journey through the program. At first blush, it seemed great. He was getting lots of education that seemed sound. And then I started to notice the cracks in the process. First, his business plan didn't work. So they encouraged him to keep re-jigging the numbers until it did. Nobody thought to tell him that "this dog won't hunt." Next, he was undercapitalized by about $100K. Nobody thought to tell him that he should delay his dream until he could raise equity. Instead, he raised a smaller amount of capital through debt instead of equity. What's worse, due to the undercapitalization, he made a dreadful location decision. He now has a retail storefront with no parking. The kicker for me was when about a month before he opened the business, they decided to nominate it as a "business of the year" candidate. They were effectively encouraging him to "plan the parade route" before the game was started, let alone won. It was absolutely bizarre.

 

Sadly, the above noted entrepreneur's foray into retail ended yesterday...


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I started reading a book about anti-gravity and I just couldn't put it down.


#36 Terran

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:58 AM

Paul,

 

I've often thought that with the large number of successful business people retiring in the Province, there is an immeasurable "talent pool" available for the mentorship of new business ventures.

 

If ACOA were to organize, support and facilitate the availability of this wealth of experience into a "Business Incubator" situation, the value could be phenominal. Most of these retiring Business people have seen, dealt with and overcome situations that most new entrepreneurs haven't even imagined.

 

The example of the "young entrepreneur" you mention above is a prime example. This person would have benefited greatly from the ability to "run his ideas" past an individual or panel of individuals who had vast experience in the business model being planned. Even more beneficial would be the ongoing availability of mentorship during the first couple of years of the new business.

 

There is an unimaginable wealth of experience that is retiring and being lost or underutilized. The opportunity to dip into that experience would be invaluable. Perthaps moreso than the simple "cash" ACOA throughs at many ventures.

 

Just a thought.

 

Terran


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"In these sad and ominous days of mad fortune chasing, every patriotic, thoughtful citizen, whether he fishes or not, should lament that we have not among our countrymen more fishermen."  Grover Cleveland
 


#37 Perry

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:41 AM

My personal experiance in running a small business in rural NS for 30 years shows that it is getting very difficult for people to develop a business in the present climate. It seems we have more and more Gov. employees arriveing at your door with new rules and hands in your back pocket, some examples.

I built the first Lodge and Sugar Shack Pancake house with lumber from logs on my own land, sawed on my own mill. Now it is against the law to build unless the lumber is stamped. you know the stamp it is on the knotty crooked 2X4, you sort thru at the Lumber Yards and big box building supply stores. BTW it isn't a 2X4 it is a 1.5 X 3.5. There are 4 mills in my community and all are idle. I supplied the lumber for 4 houses and my own buildings before this law was enacted. There is a complete lack of common sense and it seems that the main job of Silly Servents is to protect their own ass and divert responsibility.

The building code is a moveing target open to interputation by inspecters. With a wave of their regal hand you have to jump thru more hoops than a circus clown. This causes a chilling effect to develop any infastructure.

We used to have in our community my own business, two general stores one with gas pumps, a public beach, a post office and roads you could actually drive on. Now we have none of that and we use $10 worth of gas to get gas. 

The generation of young people now look at these restrictions and impediments to developing business in rural  and head to the oil patch. Who can blame them!

End of rant. now must pack for my next trip to Labrador!


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#38 Lure loser

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:28 PM

As a consumer, I'll offer another example of how boneheaded some of the processes are when you shop online.

I found a great deal on personalized, high-quality insulated travel mugs & I wanted some for gifts. To be clear, I could not get the same printed message on anything available locally, so I went for it.

It was a U.S. site but duty was not part of extra costs, I believe because they are manufactured in the U.S. and so part of the free-trade rules.

Anyway, they provided a shipping tracking number & I am the type who checks these things frequently, so I kept an eye on the package.

They shipped it from Illinois, into Canada through Markham, Ont., then it went to Burnaby, B.C.! Then it was routed to N.S.

This seems ridiculous to me. Why ship from mid-continent to the West Coast, then all the way back across the continent again? Is this what consolidating business centres does? Cut out jobs at small centres to make a huge processing centre that may cut labour costs but pay no attention to the miles & fuel needed?

Is this why I can't get fresh fruit at the local Sobeys, too? I believe they centralize their systems, now, too, so stocking decisions get made at a head office in Ontario? Annapolis Valley fruit doesn't get sold in N.S. stores?
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#39 ChaoticDisorder

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:36 PM

As a consumer, I'll offer another example of how boneheaded some of the processes are when you shop online.

I found a great deal on personalized, high-quality insulated travel mugs & I wanted some for gifts. To be clear, I could not get the same printed message on anything available locally, so I went for it.

It was a U.S. site but duty was not part of extra costs, I believe because they are manufactured in the U.S. and so part of the free-trade rules.

Anyway, they provided a shipping tracking number & I am the type who checks these things frequently, so I kept an eye on the package.

They shipped it from Illinois, into Canada through Markham, Ont., then it went to Burnaby, B.C.! Then it was routed to N.S.

This seems ridiculous to me. Why ship from mid-continent to the West Coast, then all the way back across the continent again? Is this what consolidating business centres does? Cut out jobs at small centres to make a huge processing centre that may cut labour costs but pay no attention to the miles & fuel needed?

Is this why I can't get fresh fruit at the local Sobeys, too? I believe they centralize their systems, now, too, so stocking decisions get made at a head office in Ontario? Annapolis Valley fruit doesn't get sold in N.S. stores?

 

The local fruit issue is caused by other factors as far as I have been made aware.  The cause, as I have heard it described, is due to our need to look outside of local producers/growers to fulfill the needs of the consumers outside of our local peek growing periods. 

 

Since we still need fruits and vegetables in our winter months the year-round sellers have made it price advantageous for Sobeys and Superstores to order from them 12 months a year likely through providing discounts or perhaps by imposing surcharges for winter month only orders.

 


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#40 Perry

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:18 PM

Check the barcode on products and produce. If it starts with 690. 691, or 692 its a product of China. 471 is Taiwan. 00¸- 09 Canada and USA. 30¸-37 France 40¸-44 Germany. 49 Japan. 50 UK. Many products no longer state where they are made only where the distributer is located. Barcode states in the first number the country of origin. I look for first number if it is 0 it influences my purchase


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