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#41 pmorris

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 09:37 AM

Found the answers to my own questions here: http://www.dfo-mpo.g...rary/330714.pdf


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#42 Striped Bass

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 12:06 PM

 My math may not be correct either but here goes...1 m3 of pure, distilled fresh water is equal to 1 metric tonne or (1000 kg). Obviously, salt water has a higher mass/m3 due to the higher density, but if we figure on the conservative side, then 25 % for each ton being dumped has 250 kg of salt in it. Multiply this by 9000 (since m3 equals tonnes) and I come up with 2,250,000 kg (or 2250 metric tonnes)of salt being dumped each day. Is that what you come up with SB?

The answer that I came up with is 2854 mt Suprdave. At 26% of salt by weight in brine, there are 2.64 pounds of salt per us gallon. 

That is like dumping 100 tractor trailer loads of extra salt in the river daily.

They will be using 100000m3 of fresh water from the river on low tide to dilute it down to 2.5% of salt by weight before releasing it into the river. 100000m3 is 26 417 205 gallon [US, liquid]. So there will be 26 417 205 gallons of fresh river water converted into salt water daily in the Shubenacadie River.


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#43 Striped Bass

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 12:25 PM

Found the answers to my own questions here: http://www.dfo-mpo.g...rary/330714.pdf

What answers are in this document? It is full of questions that nobody knows the answer or has the science to back up.This was also written in 2007, before Cosewic listed Striped Bass as endangered. Where has anybody done any research on any species other than the Striped Bass? Believe it or not, there are still some salmon in this river system as well as many other anadromous species.


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#44 pmorris

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 04:36 PM

What answers are in this document? It is full of questions that nobody knows the answer or has the science to back up.This was also written in 2007, before Cosewic listed Striped Bass as endangered. Where has anybody done any research on any species other than the Striped Bass? Believe it or not, there are still some salmon in this river system as well as many other anadromous species.

 

I posed two questions in post #40. I found the answers to both in that document.


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#45 Bass_Slayer

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:30 PM

Could we as fishermen take water samples from the river near the outlet pipes and use it to prove the levels are higher than what they claim? Im sure Dalhousie in truro would test the samples for the general public. Im really hoping it never comes to that but we should think about what we can do after its operational.


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#46 Shimanoman

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 03:21 PM

      I cannot understand why, if there is any question about harm to a spawn in the river of our stripers, that any operation which may impact upon the salinity in a critical area be postponed until such time as the spawn is completed and no harm will come to the population except by lawful angling.

 

Regards....


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#47 Bass_Slayer

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 04:47 PM

N.S. natives highway slowdown to protest natural gas plan
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A protester secures a sign along a major Nova Scotia highway in opposition to the construction of a natural gas storage facility near Stewiacke, N.S. on Monday, September 29, 2014. (Andrew Vaughan / THE CANADIAN PRESS)

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The Canadian Press 
Published Monday, September 29, 2014 11:12AM EDT 
Last Updated Monday, September 29, 2014 12:16PM EDT

STEWIACKE, N.S. -- A group of Mi'kmaq protesters and their supporters are planning to slow down traffic on one of Nova Scotia's main highways this week in a bid to stop construction of a natural gas storage facility near Alton.

Group spokeswoman Cheryl Maloney says the protesters plan to light a ceremonial fire and set up a teepee today near Highway 102 north of Stewiacke.

Some of the protesters have already placed placards by the side of the highway.

Maloney says the First Nation bands in nearby Millbrook and Indian Brook want the project stopped because they say there hasn't been enough consultation regarding the potential impact on the environment.

The group plans to slow down traffic Wednesday on Highway 102 with the help of the RCMP.

Alton Natural Gas Storage wants to store natural gas in underground salt caverns that will be created by pumping in water from the Shubenacadie River and then pumping the brine water back into the river system.


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.c...4#ixzz3EjtpmkdK


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#48 Bass_Slayer

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 04:49 PM

I say we go out wednesday dressed as fishermen and support the natives. I work until 3:30 in the afternoon and plan to go show support, and to help protect the river and do whats right. If a bunch of us showed up on the side of the highway with the natives maybe the rest of the world might see we have an issue that is effecting everybody


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#49 mikez

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 06:33 PM

So I was trying to do the arithmetic on this in my head and at the end I decided just to look it up.https://www.novascot...n/AppendixA.pdf

Cumulative water flow per tide cycle at discharge site is between 1.575m m3 on a neap and 5.844m m3 on a spring tide

If we assume that brackish water has an SG of 1.009 that means that salt mass in the river at this discharge site varies between 14,175 tonnes and 52,596 tonnes depending on the height of tide on a daily basis

The addition of 2500 tonnes of salt per day spread over two tide cycles makes a difference of about 8% on neap tides and about 2% on springs - that is makes a small percentatge difference to the total salt mass in the river.

The addition of that much salt  would raise the salinity of the estuary water to SG 1.0098 on a neap tide and to 1.0092 on a spring tide.

The salinity of the water at the proposed discharge is already highly variable ranging from almost fresh (1.00) to almost straight salt water (1.025) depending on the height of the tides and the amount of precipitation.

From the perspective of spawning habitat, striped bass spawn in fresh water above the "salt wedge" ie above the area where the heavier salt water lies. The young voluntarily move down into progressively more saline environments as they mature.http://www.dnr.state...00000260_13.pdf

If the discharge site is below the stripers spawning area, (is it?) then it would be hard to see how the discharge of a brine containing only salt would affect them.

Can someone help me out here?


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#50 Striped Bass

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 08:39 PM

Sorry if its me helping you out, hopefully someone else can give another educated opinion as well.

The discharge site is only .5 km below the spawning area. This river moves two ways, tide in, tide out. The eggs and juvenile float right down by the discharge site, then back up by twice daily, so four times. My concern is where is the extra salt going? Back into the Cobequid Bay, where on the next high tide, some of it will come back into the Stewiacke spawning area. Over time, it will have to raise the salinity in these rivers.

For some reason, its perfect the way it is with between 14,175 tonnes and 52,596 tonnes.


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#51 mikez

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 08:18 AM

I understand your concern but given the ratio of the amount of salt they are adding compared to the amount of salt already in the river, as well as the huge variability in natural salinity I'm finding it hard to understand the level of concern that is being reported.

I agree that the Martec report did not clearly identify the level of water turnover in the river, that is the total outflow or flush on every tide cycle at the discharge site, however given the volumes of water involved, particularly as the diluted brine reaches Maitland (stated at 58 million cubic meters per tide cycle) the transformation of 100,000 cubic metres of "fresh" water to 100,000 cubic meters of saltwater at seawater density (1.025) is less than 0.2%

I am still not seeing the issue here.

Perhaps the better solution would be to push for either a reduction or cessation of brine discharge during the striper spawning season?

On a separate note isn't that same spawning season when we see the greatest level of sport fishing activity? There seems to be a bit of a contradiction. (I'm guilty of fishing then myself)


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#52 Perry

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:13 AM

I believe the problem is in the ability of the eggs to hatch. The eggs free float and ride the tide in and out. the salt content is critical for them to hatch so even in an undisturbed river it isn't successful every year. I assume this is what happened on the Annapolis River with the causeway. The Spawning run will continue with the change in salt content but the eggs will not hatch that was the result on the Annapolis, they were fished until they were gone. Science belongs to business interest not in the interest of fish!

 If you wish to educate yourself  about stripers is a book by John Cole called "Striper" a story about man and fish. 


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#53 -----

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:45 AM

I believe the problem is in the ability of the eggs to hatch. The eggs free float and ride the tide in and out. the salt content is critical for them to hatch so even in an undisturbed river it isn't successful every year. I assume this is what happened on the Annapolis River with the causeway. The Spawning run will continue with the change in salt content but the eggs will not hatch that was the result on the Annapolis, they were fished until they were gone. Science belongs to business interest not in the interest of fish!
 If you wish to educate yourself  about stripers is a book by John Cole called "Striper" a story about man and fish.

Science is still an individual judgement in many cases. You can easily find scientific reports on a single subject with multiple differing conclusions from multiple different scientists. Open Pen Salmon Farming is a great example. Using science, exclusively as a support to an Argument, might be a bit suicidal.
Science was not very accurate when it came to the East Coast Fisheries. Many of these reports are leaning towards those that have asked or commissioned them.
All of this said, NS needs to get industry here, somehow, some way. We are collapsing, Financially. Cooperation between Industry and conservation is an absolute must, doors need to start opening rather than closing on every opportunity that comes into NS. The major employer is Government jobs, which are slowing dwindling away.
We are terribly broke, sooner or later this will catch up to all of us, those that have not left already..
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#54 mikez

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 01:00 PM

Perry, not sure about salinity in the Annapolis river - I was there one time when DFO or Dal (not sure which) were doing bottom assays below the turbine. One of the researchers told me that the bottom was "covered with dead fish" They surmised that it was not from physical contact with the blades but rather from pressure shear passing through. I think that this phenomenon has been shown time and again at other hydro installations on various rivers.

As previously if the concern is about spawning then perhaps the solution is to ask that brine discharge be curtailed during the spawning season.

Unfortunately if the entire stock is at that much risk, perhaps the solution is to prohibit the discharge of brine and to close the estuary and the Basin to recreational fishing.


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#55 Bass_Slayer

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:35 PM

Perry, not sure about salinity in the Annapolis river - I was there one time when DFO or Dal (not sure which) were doing bottom assays below the turbine. One of the researchers told me that the bottom was "covered with dead fish" They surmised that it was not from physical contact with the blades but rather from pressure shear passing through. I think that this phenomenon has been shown time and again at other hydro installations on various rivers.

As previously if the concern is about spawning then perhaps the solution is to ask that brine discharge be curtailed during the spawning season.

Unfortunately if the entire stock is at that much risk, perhaps the solution is to prohibit the discharge of brine and to close the estuary and the Basin to recreational fishing.

An even better solution would be not to dump any salt at all, and instead collect it and sell it on the open market. Why take the risk of dumping? I'm not sure about the integrity of the post but i'm sure someone said a salt company was contacted independently and said they would be interested in buying the salt and went on to say it was a hard desirable quality of salt. Why not make everyone happy take responsibility for ones actions? 


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#56 Striped Bass

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:46 PM

Close recreational fishing? We still have this one river in this province where you can come and see thousands of fish spawning, and hopefully, catch a 40lb fish. In April, tens of thousands of smelts use the brackish water to spawn. In January, tens of thousands of tommy cod use the brackish water to spawn. Sea run brown trout come up, seals, and porpoise chase the gaspereou  and shad up for their spawn as well. Where there are recreational fisherman, there are people who care.

I take people out fishing every year, who say they have never seen anything like it. These are people who use guiding services all over. Now I`ll have to tell them that the Stripers could be wasting their time, DFO has decided to let brine waste experiments be conducted, Alton Gas will monitor the river and submit quarterly reports on toxicity levels.

Remove the salt, and sell it would be the best idea. It might make a few more jobs to add to the very few this project will create once its all built, which is being done by a company from New Brunswick and Alberta.


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#57 Suprdave

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 06:09 AM

I'm sure recreational fishing accounts for many fish fatalities each year, but I fail to see how that even begins to compare to what is going on here. We are not talking about a few hundred or a few thousand fish, we are looking at the possible complete destruction of a species (or several species), along with changing the entire ecosystem of a river. All because of corporate greed and government stupidity. BTW, I doubt that salt is the only concern, I don't know of many industries that don;t have some type of chemicals and toxins in their arsenal of biological weapons. 


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#58 Shimanoman

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:53 AM

How much closer (and cheaper) would it be to truck salt from Alton to Halifax to be used as winter road salt than from Pictou?  Why flush this stuff into the BOF at a cost??  Is there any reason why Alton salt could not be used on the highways??  Just askin'

 

Regards....


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#59 mikez

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:56 AM

Shimanoman - that's a pretty interesting idea - given that the province and the municipality dump tens of thousands of tons of salt on the roads in NS on a annual basis, about 150kgs per lane/km per snow event (all of which eventually finds itself in NS waterways)

I found elsewhere, reference to the province experimenting with brine as opposed to rock salt because it lowered road maintenance costs.

It would be interesting to look at the arthmetic, hopefully someone at Dept of Highways is.

 

As far as I know, shad, gaspereaux, sea trout, salmon and smelts all spawn in fresh water way above the tide. They transition through the area on their way to spawn but both the adults and the juveniles pass through brackish water that has highly variable salinity and not a constant gradient like you might find in other rivers without the extremes of tide, on their way to and from the fresh water - eels as well although they are not spawning. They seem to be able to tolerate this variability in salinity, which can vary from almost full salt water ie 1.9% salt to almost pure fresh water in the estuary area. As previously the proposed brine might increase the total salinity by perhaps .2% above base line according to the published flow data.

I agree that if there are other chemicals in the brine - boron for example, this could have a negative effect, but I think we are talking of a salt dome similar to the ones at Pugwash and Cap aux Meules - we eat that.


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#60 Transplant

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 10:16 AM

Selling the salt/ using it on highways and such has all been considered, it's in one of the reports. I'll see if I can find it again.


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